RC – Page 3 – Radical RC Workbench

Crash Investigation, Why did it crash?

Just as in full scale aviation, crashes are often because of a sequence of things going wrong. I received a letter recently asking my opinion on a set of circumstances. At the time of this writing there is no 100% sure answer, not enough info is provided, however there is enough info to draw boil it down to a few likely reasons. It’s easier to take a cucumber cool Sherlock Holmes look at the facts when it’s not your own model. However, you should always investigate crashes and failures with cool logic looking for every possibility, particularly the human element. Read through John’s letter and see what idea’s you have based on the info provided

Hi Dave:

I have an Orbit Charger–up graded by you to accept A123 cells.–Number: 0650-05601OK

Until recently it has worked flawlessly–but that came to a “Crashing” end several weeks ago when I took of and immediately ran out of power, airspeed and ideas, all about the same time.

If you will bear with me I will run through the sequence of events:

*Prior to going to the Field I threw my Plane on Charge (6 x A123)–The Charger quickly indicated “Full and I assumed I had charged before leaving the field the previous day.

* Commenced T.O. and promptly BECed at about 15 ft–gliding smoothly into a vertical Metal Post just off the side of our runway—cleverly ripping the wing in two and tearing it off the Fuse.

*Checking the battery back at the Pits, with my Buddy’s similar Orbit Charger–the pack indicated full and would not accept any charge.

OK, that is what happened–here is the rest of the story:

On arrival at home–(I did not take my charger to the field as we have similar chargers and packs and intended to use my buddy’s) I put my Pack on MY charger–and was horrified to see, when it was turned on–“LiPo 4.2” instead of the usual 3.6!

So all was clear–somehow my Charger reverted to Lipo 4.2V/Cell, overcharged (very quickly I might add) and ruined my 6 cell pack. This without any abnormal heat or any indication (other than the initial charge settings–which I have never paid as much attention to, as obviously I should have– as it’s been “Bullet Proof” for years).

Battery Pack ruined–Airplane wing history, ego damaged–etc!

But what I would like to know–is WHY???–did my charger revert to 4.2V/Cell as I have never used Lipo Batteries with this charger since you upgraded it– and I must say it has preformed flawlessly–until now!!

I hope this ramble was understandable to you,

Regards
John, Canada

John, Sorry to hear of losing a favorite model. You say it ruined your pack, however, you don’t provide any cycle data or voltages to back that up. So, I’m going to make a guess or two to follow that presumes your pack is not ruined from over voltage charging.

You may not know, but when A123 first came out there were no chargers really. We all charged them with Lipo mode chargers. As long as they are perfectly in balance this can be done. The high voltage fuse does not open up and fail the cell until just a little bit over 4.2. So, if a fuse opened up (your pack would be reading zero) it would have to be out of balance to begin with. You don’t say your pack is reading zero, just throwing out there some information you may not be aware of. Obviously it is less risky to the HV fusing if charged to 3.6 per cell and as chargers (Orbit was one of the first) became available to do it correctly we started only charging them in A123 modes.

There is no capacity (or not much) above 3.6v so there is no advantage to charging them higher than 3.6v, just risk. They are not lipo which will puff or risk of fire if you charge them even a tiny bit above their max voltage of 4.2. A123 is a little more forgiving of it’s 3.6v cap. Not suggesting you take up this practice, just history to chew on which bears on your question.

No idea why it may have reverted. Have you run a test to satisfy yourself it is true? If it is, you could tell it that it was charging a Lipo pack of 1 cell less and it would stop at 4.2v x cell count. In this case, set to 5 cells it would stop at 21v on your 6S A123. This would prove for certain your correct.

Also, bear in mind you had some period of time of testing it and it worked perfectly. It’s possible something happened here that you may have not expected yet was exactly what was supposed to happen given the circumstances. Bear with me while I roll through the some possibilities. Anything is possible some some things are more likely than others.

Also, havn’t used one lately in A123 mode but I am wondering if the screen reads differently? It’s late or I would check it, time to go home.

****For the benefit of readers, the Orbit charger starts the charge procedure as soon as you plug in the pack. Plugging in the pack is like hitting the “start” button on many chargers. It looks at the pack for a few seconds then displays on the screen the number of cells it “thinks” it’s connected to. The user then adjusts by hitting the up or down arrow and once you hit “start” and approve it, it starts applying current and charges the battery.****

Scenario’s I’d put forth:

1) If it were in fact in Lipo Mode, an A123 Discharged to 2.7v per cell would be only only be 16.2V, the charger would have guess it was only 4 cells and charged it to 16.8v. You’d be not fully charged and your flight would end very early. Your charger would “peak” out quickly. It would be very reasonable for you to fly the pack down to that level, so this scenario could hold some water. If your BEC voltage is hard set to something reasonable like 2.3v per cell or so, you can see how quickly putting a load on the partially charged pack would cause you to hit BEC cut out.

2) If it were a tad higher than 2.7v, lets say 2.9v, it might still only guess 4 cells. Same scenario as above, you’d be not fully charged and your flight would end very early. Your charger would “peak” out quickly.

3) If you had a short flight and the cells were at 3v+ then the total would have been 18+v. The Orbit tends to guess a tad low (to be fire/damage safer on your packs) at higher cell counts, so I’d expect it to count 5 cells in Lipo mode at 18v and only charge your pack to 21v. A full A123 would be 21.6v, it would have flown fine and you’d not have detected the slight short charge.

4) The charger could have been in A123 mode, the pack could have been discharged lower than normal. Did the last flight on the prior day end in a BEC cut out? Was it a great day, perfect conditions, where you reallying enjoying yourself extra well? Maybe you put a couple more minutes on it. Maybe it was discharged a little further than normal habits and counted 5 cells. Out of habit you approved it without looking and you had a short charge at 18v to start the flight.

My guess without having anything here to measure or double check is that scenario 4 happened It is even possible you could have had the pack so low (depending on BEC settings and nature of model) that the orbit only counted 4 cells and only charged to 14.4v. This kind of oversight when your distracted or in a hurry is very easy to make. And with a floaty model with very low cruise power requirements, it’s even easier to fly a pack very deep by mistake.

I would wager (unless there is mechanical damage) that your pack is just fine, just undercharged due to approving the charge at the wrong cell count and not hitting the up arrow to correct it.

If in fact it really and truly is in Lipo mode, I have no idea how that could have happened and it’s likely that scenario 1 describes the chain of events.

Some positive action to take:

When anything happens that is unexpected, it’s worth a closer look. You had the little red flag early on that the pack filled quicker than usual.

Really looking at that screen before you approve the charge is the first step in not having a problem. The second is looking at the finish voltage when you take the pack off. Your packs should be reading close to 3.6×6 or 21.6v. Seeing this end voltage is your second charging check and really your first step in pre-flight inspection of the model. The third check is listening to the ESC and make sure it’s counting 6 beeps. If it only beeped 4x or 5x when you plugged it up, it’s a big red flag something is amiss. If you pay careful attention to all three of these steps, it would be very difficult for something like this to slip by you again.

(You might actually be listening for 5 beeps as most ESC’s presume they are counting LIPO’s to set BEC Cut Off voltage. Being aware of the regular beep count that represents a full pack is the point, not the precise number in this case since your flying A123 cells and I dont’ know which ESC your using or it’s settings. So, correct could be 5 beeps, wrong could be 4.)

Hope those ideas will let you craw back through memory and your equipment and find a satisfactory explanation. Obviously, anything that goes unexplained can easily happen again so you want to figure out as much about it as you can. This should allow you to be alerted before flight if ever there should be a next time that circumstances stack up in a similar way.

If you did mechanically damage the battery, we can usually repair them. We keep cells on hand here.

Dave

Keith Shaw’s Radical RC 1905 Wright Flyer Project Part 1

This series of posts created from email correspondence between Keith and I. He’s really done a lot of neat things to this kit. Expect a new report every Thursday for at least 5 weeks. Keith is in the AMA Hall of Fame. He is one of the fathers of modern day electric flight, a superb scale builder and solid modeler in many ways. Read more on the AMA website: Autobiography of KEITH SHAW

You can meet Keith every year at the Mid-America Flies electric fly in where he and Ken Myers of the EFO club host the longest running electric power meet in the country if not the world. Both are AMA Hall Of Fame members. Lots of scale modelers attend this event. Your sure to see many very nice hand built models here. The event is usually held in June and is always announced in the Ampeer Newsletter.

On to the first installment of Keith’s 1905 Wright Flyer Project:

First up is the dummy engine and magneto. Engine is made from foamboard, card stock, bits of lite-ply, dowel, and the chain is a section from a cheap necklace. Magneto is carved from pink foam.

Pilot is from Toys R Us, a “True Heros Fire Rescue, Robert Portman”. Very close to 1/7th scale. Had to use heat gun and some carving to pose him onto the necessary prone pilot position. Figure comes with boots and a bright yellow suit with day-go emergency strips. Fortunately the strips were sewed on, so easily removed. The uniform required some tailoring to make it look more like a 1900’s suit. The collar, tie and cuffs are all thin painted card stock. Toughest thing was trying to dye the bright yellow cloth to look right. The fabric is polyester and not easy to color. Tried RIT, then some aniline dyes without luck. Finally took a black magic marker apart, diluted the liquid, ad soaked the fabric overnight. It came out a black-green, and looks acceptable. I still have to make a cap for Orville, looking for better photos of that type of “Duster” cap he always wore.

Keith

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1905 Wright Flyer With Added Bling

StephenCushing2 — Steve Cushing’s 1905 Wright Flyer

Stephen Cushing writes and provides photo’s of his Radical RC 1905 Wright Flyer kit. He added flying wires and also built a dolly. I know the dolly has it’s own RX that responds to his rudder inputs so he can taxi and guide the model on it’s take off run. This allows Steve to fly the model without a hand launcher to help. Nice job Steve!

Steve also informs me of a pilot doll he found on ebay: Legacy of Valor Wright Brothers Figures. So, more scale detail to come.

StephenCushing 1 — Rear View S. Cushing’s 1905

Click image to see full size. Thanks for the photo’s Steve!

Interested in this kit? Check it out HERE.

Lipo Battery Disposal

Warren Behymer asks and interesting question:

I need to know how to dispose of LiPo battery that has swollen due to an overcurrent.

There are two issues.

1. We want to discharge the battery in such a way as there is minimal risk of fire during the discharge and later when the battery is in the recycle or trash bin.

2. We want to dispose of the depleted pack in a recycling container.

The first thing to do is remove all potential from the battery. We do this with an 1157 light bulb (Brake/Marker type bulb). It’s handy to use because it gives an indication of ongoing discharge by emmitting light and doesn’t tie up one of my ever working chargers. We have our bulb wired with alligator clips and a switch to choose between one or both filaments. I don’t remember what the draw is per filament, but we considered that a small cell would be more safely discharged at a lower rate than a larger cell. When discharging a large cell, we set the switch so both filaments burn. We use an ammo box as an oxygen poor fire safe to do this, since we are indoors and we’re working with a suspect pack in the first place.

This is allowed to burn until the bulb is out, then allowed to set connected to the bulb until the following day. This way we are 100% certain the pack is completely exhausted.

BLOG_PIC_SOLDER — Lipo Leads Soldered Together

Next we solder together the leads on the pack. Just in case any recovery or bounce back of capacity in the pack were possible, it is constantly discharged through the short. There should now be no chance of any kind of arc or spark starting a fire in the recycling container. Being that the pack is completely empty, there should not be any energy present of any kind.

collectionBox_US670 — Battery Recycling Box

It’s now okay to discard /recycle the pack properly. We won’t have to worry about the pack accidentally being shorted and causing a fire in any container. It’s electronically inert.

Federal law (49 CFR 173.185) states lithium type batteries must be individually packaged in non-conductive material and transported to a “permitted” recycler. In our shop, we use Call2Recycle (also known as RBRC 1-877-723-1297). They provide free recycling materials and processing. A bag is provided for each pack, we wrap the back in the pack, seal it, drop it in the box. When the box is full, we contact UPS for a free pickup and delivery to the recycling station. Any local battery seller should have this capability on site. We accept lipos for recycling at Radical RC.

Help finding a Call2Recycle RBRC Recycling Location near you.

There may be other safe and accepted ways of doing this, the above is how we handle it at Radical RC.

Holding A Swap Meet: Date Planning

The following advice is written with RC hobby swap meets in mind. However, the same logic and solid advice apply’s to any club event you are contemplating.

Why:
The largest reason for an event failing to take root and grow strong is often poor date planning.

Context:
Generally swaps are held during the winter months. In the Ohio and probably most northern states the season runs from October thru March. It might be different in your neck of the woods.

Here is how to do it:
Print out calenders for all the months you will be considering. Collect together the AMA magazine “Model Aviation” for the past year or two. Go through the non-flying events advertisement in the back. Write down every swap meet within 2-300 miles on the date it occurred. Look in the Flying Events section for things like indoor fly ins and other large open public events. Don’t worry specialized contests and such things that probably have 20 or fewer people attending. It’s not a bad idea to do this for a period reaching back 2 years. This will give you very good idea what what the flow of events looks like. Usually event planners will tend to repeat the same dates like the 1st Saturday of November or whatever. Why consider events so many miles away? You’ll find the closest event (within 150 miles) have the biggest impact and the furthest ones the least. However, if a major event like PERRY (worlds largest swap) is going on, you won’t get any professional or armature vendors and perhaps only a few swappers, they will all be at Perry or Toledo or Joe Nal, whatever the major is. Same advice goes for certain flying events. Don’t schedule over a major indoor flying event like the JR Indoor Fest or the Hobbico E-Fest.

Be realistic:
If you put yours on the same day as the regular ABC Dog Fighters meet 100 miles away, your likely to get exactly what you deserve for this sillyness, NO VENDORS AT ALL. And, 20% of the locals will be going to the ABC Meet. Additionally, all the people 1/2 way between you and there are going to choose the sure thing, not the new event. I’ve run into many event CD’s stuck in a prototype thinking mode. It goes something like this: “I’d never go 100 miles for a swap meet, how can that event possibly effect us?” Here is the fallacy of that kind of thinking, not everybody is like “you”, and in fact, who cares about “you”, your going to your own clubs event no mater what. Where the profit from these events comes is getting “others” to come. So, forget about “you” and think more openly about “others”. Additionally, leave all ego’s aside. You don’t have to beat the competition, you can simply put your event on a different date and be the only game around. It’s a simple formula.

Question: A club in the next town holds and event in January, when would be a good time for us?
I’ve found two clubs in the same region, county or town can have great results but one thing is important. Think of the new year as a dividing line. If one club holds an event on the last weekend in January and it’s close by, you don’t’ want to have yours in February. They’ve already consumed the bulk of the enthusiasm and energy for a swap meet. It takes time for that to build up again. Consider running your event on the opposite side of the calendar. Why not choose November or December? I’ve found two clubs can have meets even in the same town and they both work well as long as they are on opposite sides of the calendar. Putting your event a week or month in front of another one without the calendar year division is a somewhat unfriendly thing to do. There is room for everyone. Think cooperatively. Your members are going to the other event, you want them feeling good about showing up at yours.

The Sister Event or Opposite Day Strategy.
One really effective way to build a big meet fast is find another meet and sister with it. Lets say there is a decent event 150 miles away usually held on the 3rd Saturday of February. The following Sunday is open and would be a great day to host your event. Your far enough away that your not sharing “most” of the shoppers and those in between your events may just attend them both. Also, the regular swap vendors will see your event on the AMA schedule and even though it’s new, they are already packed up, they will come to yours also. Packing the goodies up and getting two shows in one road trip is an irresistible temptation. Snagging some good vendors really helps build credibility for your event. And, don’t think we’re just talking commercial venders. There are plenty of hobby swappers who just love trading and swapping that attend many events each year, you’ll snag some of these guys from the other event also. This strategy works well and really ends up helping lift up both events. Some new vendors might attend that never attended either event because travel and fuel costs of going to a single event was never worth it to them but as a pair of events it is a more cost effective trip. If your going to do this, be sure you verify the scheduled other event date with the CD. It’s also a great idea if you can catch somebody attending the other event to put a stack of fliers at the entrance of the Saturday event. Likewise, if there is a large Sunday some similar distance away, you can always stick yours on Saturday. Be sure to to contact the other club and do things out in the open. It benefits everyone. It’s always a nice gesture to stick the other clubs swap flier into your own club newsletter. Most newsletters are online today, it won’t cost you anything to be friendly. What goes around comes around.

Q: Saturday or Sunday, which is better? Most events are held on Saturday. Since few are in church that day, you have the largest pool of volunteers on Saturday. However, I’ve found over the years, there really is no difference in the size of an event on Saturday vs Sunday. You might get a few grumbles for planning on Sunday, just remind them they haven’t been to Sunday evening service in a long time. 😉

Q: We’ve been having a swap for years, but this year we have to pick a new date for reasons beyond our control. We are afraid nobody will come.
Let me put you at ease right now. Modelers are not lemmings. Nearly every event CD over estimates how “conditioned” the attending public is. Let me be clear, probably few if anybody remembers exactly what your regular date is. They are all going to look up the date every year to be “sure”. We’ve had to shift our event a weekend this way or that a couple times and our numbers at the gate were just fine. Don’t get stuck in a rut thinking you can never change your date. Do what you need to do for the health of the event.

Q: But we’ve always held it on X day?
Your still asking? I’m sorry, you just may be too hard headed to help.

Q: Ok, we’ve picked a date, now what?
Refer back to your calendar, call those event CD’s on and around your date. Double check they are actually planning to repeat on the dates you are expecting. Be as certain as possible before obligating the club treasury. There is almost nothing more important than a clear date.

OK, but there is a huge fun-fly a few hundered miles away. Is this really going to have an impact?
YES, pick another date! Even an event 300 miles distant will impact you. Where do the RC’rs in between go? If you miss 15 people at $5 a head and 5 tables at $12 each, your mistake cost you almost $130 and it means fewer people are there to spend money, fewer people will be there to offer items for sale. The impression you leave is less successful. Don’t be hard on yourself, pick another date. We are at this time considering moving our well established event for this very reason.

Closing Concepts:
The most important thing in your planning is how to maximize the event for your club and also for all those that attend. Think beyond the direct benefits your group is getting. What your doing is actually a benefit to many inside and outside your region. I always try to take a non-partisan, non-selfish approach to every decision. It’s not about any one thing other than the best possible health of “the event” and the greatest benefit to your modeling region. Taking actions with this attitude in mind will result in the greatest success over the long haul. Encourage whoever is heading up your event to think in this way.

Dave Thacker
CD Midwest Model RAMA

Swap And Fly August 11, 2012 – Wingmaster Field

Every year in August the Dayton Wingmasters host a Swap and Fly. This year is the 4th annual Swap and Fly, it’s scheduled for Saturday August 11th. Last year we had a full house with a lot of merchandise being bought and sold. Every year it seems to grow and grow. This is an outdoor tailgate swap, bring your own tent/tables if you wish, give a good deal and get one. In addition we welcome you to fly with us at one of the area’s nicest fields. Cost to enter is free. $10 for selling space, first come, first serve. Food is available on site. We hope to see you there!

Gate Opens At 8:30 For Sellers / Set-Up Swap Meet Starts At 10:00 – Flying Starts At 12:00 – Flyer Below

2012 Wingmasters Swap And Fly Flyer

Wingmasters info and maps on Radical RC Workbench Blog

Wingmasters Club Website

Dayton Wingmasters Model Airplane Club

Wingmasters Logo

Location: The Dayton Wingmasters are located behind Wegertzen Garden Center. Entrance to the area is through the Wegertzent Garden Center main gate. Another gate is at the entrance to the model airport area.

Website: http://www.wingmasters.org/

Contact Email: Check Website

Access to the field: An access key is required. Obtaining and access key requires membership in the AMA. A fee is collected to offset the cost of maintainance, mowing and porta pottie expenses incured by the club. Membership in the club is not a requirement to fly at this facility, however, the club appreciates your memebership as support of the ongoing efforts. A membership includes access to electric.

GPS Geeks:
View Larger Map39.809665,-84.203027

View Larger Map

Model Airport Address: Still Water River Trail, Dayton, OH 45414 (for navigation purposes, not a mailing address)

AMA Club Charter: #499 Formed: ???? History: Tailspins Newsletter

Club Dues: $15 (Join at meeting or at RC Hobby Center)

Field Access Key: $25 (Available at meeting or RC Hobby Center)

Average Membership: 90-110
Memebership Limit?: No

Google Maps Satellite View
View Larger Map

Flying Hours: Monday thru Saturday 10:am to Dark, Sunday 12pm to Dark.

Membership Information: The club is open to all AMA Members.

Guest Flying:This club is open to guest flyers at any time.

What you’ll find: Wingmaser Field is a beautiful site. The 40 acre field includes a 40′ wide by 440′ long paved and striped runway, heli flying area, control line circles, shelterhouse, nessasary room, nearby lake, picnic tables, 110v electric and 12v electric. Area around the runway is closely mowed and the area north of the runway is usually in good enough condition for grass strip flying. This is the area’s largest group with flying every weekend and many activities.

Special Notes From Dave: It’s always “Gentlemanly” to observe the AMA Safety Code as a baseline at any new field until all local rules, etiquette and customs are learned. Be aware some fields have routine full scale air traffic nearby, others very little or none. It takes time to become aware of all the special concerns and routines at any new flying field.

1905 Wright Flyer Kit Wins Award

Flightline Photo borrowed from Ampeer Newsletter

Thanks to Ken Meyers and Keith Shaw (now both AMA Hall of Fame members) for all the work and effort continuing the country’s oldest ongoing electric fly in. The Mid-America Electric Flies. This years event was held July 7 & 8 2012 and is usually scheduled the weekend after July 4th holiday. This event is a gathering of friends and is attended by many builders. The group is full of electric flyers that were working hard at making electric work since long before it was cool or easy. It’s always a great time.

Sunday included an award for the Radical RC 1905 Wright Flyer kit “1st Place CD’s Choice” award. All of us at Radical RC appreciate the award and recognition. It’s such a fun airplane to fly. Several people at the event flew the model including Keith Shaw who is now the proud owner of a kit. He reports to me this is only the 8th kit he’s purchased in his lifetime. Keith normally makes his own plans or occasionally builds from plans scratch building nearly all of his models. We consider it a high compliment that our 1905 Wright Flyer kit will cross the same workbench as a lifetime of award winning and hobby expanding projects Keith Shaw has completed.

The EFO group’s newsleter, the longest running journal for electrick flight. In this issue, coverage of the 28th edition of the Mid-America Electric Flies event. The Ampeer August 2012

Chance To Fly At Huffman Prairie Aero Carnival

Please Tweet, Post or do whatever you can to help me the the news out to pilots that might want to fly their early aviation models at the Wright Aero Carnival at Huffman Prarie.

I am working with the National Parks to bring demonstration flying of early aircraft to the Wright Aero Carnival at Huffman Prairie. The Carnival is a celabration of the Wright Brothers and early aviation. Models may be brought for demonstration flying of any aircraft through 1916. All models are welcome, not only Wright machines. You may bring any aircraft, Curtiss, Langley, Bleriot, many WWI aircraft qualify, even controversal or failed aircraft are welcome. Essentially anything the Wrights might have read news accounts of, hear rumors of, anything that might have been part of the what was going on in the development of flight up to 1916. All of these aircraft help to tell the story of early aviation and that is the point of participating in the event. Flying will be from 10am to Noon and 1pm to 3pm on Saturday August 18, 2012. The public will be in attendance. It’s is a very special and rare opportunity to get a photo of you and your aircraft flying at the worlds first airport, Huffman Prairie.

Aircraft need not be museum scale. Stand off scale, is welcome also. Models of any size are welcome. We will be flying over the same grass as the Wrights flew over. A paved road ajoining the field is available for a runway. I plan to be there with my 1905 kit which is stand off scale. Won’t you bring your model an help fill in the story of early flight?

Flying is not allowed at Huffman Prairie at any other time.

Please contact me if you can come. davthacker77@aol.com (remove the 77, it’s there to foil spam email spiders) There is a limit of 10 pilot slots for this event.

This rare opportunity to fly at Huffman Prairie is also a great way to set a positive example for modeling with the US Airforce and the National Parks Service. Decision makers within the National Parks Service across the country will be reading accounts of this event. What you do here in Dayton on August 18 could have a big impact on modelers elsewhere in the country.

View Larger MapMap showing overall area including I-75, I-70 & I-675 highways.

View Larger Map
On the day of the event, you’ll enter at the Golf Course and follow the signs in. (zoom the map 1 level + to see the road names) On the map above, the west end of Pylon Road will be closed. You’ll drive around the field by following Hebble Creek to right on Marl to right on Symmes to right on Pylon. Our pit area will be between the replica launch derrick and Pylon road at the turn circle.

The view from the flying area of our pit area.